The Journey of Caffeine: Founder and CEO Ben Keighran's Vision for Broadcasting

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[00:02:12] Welcome to the Speed of Culture.

[00:02:19] Up today, we're going to be speaking with Ben Kieran, an Australian-born technology entrepreneur

[00:02:23] and the CEO of Caffeine, a groundbreaking social broadcast platform.

[00:02:27] Ben, so great to have you in the Speed of Culture. Thanks so much for joining today.

[00:02:30] Thanks for having me, Matt. I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:32] Absolutely. So we have all different types of people on the Speed of Culture podcast.

[00:02:36] We have people that work for major brands and we've had our fair share of entrepreneurs

[00:02:39] and those are always some of my personal favorites because I love the journey being an entrepreneur myself

[00:02:43] of how to get a product from early inception to a full-blown company

[00:02:47] and you've done that many times over.

[00:02:49] And just to love to hear from you, what do you think you experienced during your upbringing

[00:02:54] that enabled you to be an entrepreneur?

[00:02:57] That's an awesome question. Thanks for asking it.

[00:02:59] Look, I think just growing up, I always just loved building things that other people could use.

[00:03:06] And I grew up by the beach in Australia, surfing. That was my jam.

[00:03:10] But just loved building computers, working with computers.

[00:03:14] Actually it was like a self-taught programmer at 10 years old.

[00:03:17] And it had just really got super passionate about the idea of making things that other people could get some use from.

[00:03:24] I just thought it was the coolest thing ever and feel really fortunate that I gravitated to that at such a young age.

[00:03:31] So you just had a calling that technology was something that interested you.

[00:03:35] Was there anything that initiated that or is it just sort of something that you feel like was in your DNA?

[00:03:41] In my early 40s now. And so it was really kind of early 90s where Yahoo and the Internet and all these things were sort of tabled enough.

[00:03:49] We're talking like 386s and 486s and XT computers, like they were before those, that kind of time.

[00:03:57] And I just thought it was maybe like a Lego set or something.

[00:04:01] It was just so fun putting a video card and an installing RAM and then the chipset and then building software on the computer.

[00:04:09] And my mind was just blown away as just a little kid as a creative outlet.

[00:04:14] And then when I saw that you could make things that other people could use and hopefully get some value from, I just was drawn to it for sure.

[00:04:21] And like, as I said, from like 10 years old, like, I mean one quick side story is like you're at school with like doing like the yearbook for like grade five or something.

[00:04:31] And like who's your hero and everyone else is writing like Michael Jackson and all this kind of stuff.

[00:04:36] I'm writing like Dennis Ritchie, the founder of C++.

[00:04:40] There was something in it, something about it that I was so excited about clearly even today.

[00:04:45] Yeah. And in 2003, you founded your first company, Blue Pulse. Tell us about the impetus behind that company.

[00:04:51] Sure. So I mean, I haven't told the story in a long time, but when sort of wireless technologies like 802.11b Wi-Fi started to emerge, Bluetooth was another sort of technology.

[00:05:04] I became so fascinated with the capabilities of those technologies and actually built this little remote control out of my Bluetooth mobile phone.

[00:05:14] The first ever Bluetooth mobile phones, the Ericsson T39, it was in Tomb Raider. Do you remember like the boom headset in Tomb Raider?

[00:05:20] Not like the Bluetooth thing. Anyways, I thought it was super cool.

[00:05:23] So I got my hands on that and I ended up making a remote control for my mobile phone so you could like come into my apartment which was about the size of a shoebox.

[00:05:32] The playlist on Winamp, the MP3 music play would like appear on the screen of the phone and you could use it to change tunes.

[00:05:38] And so this got me like really into sort of mobile application development and ultimately led to me building Blue Pulse which was a Java application that gave people these really rich messaging capabilities and things that you used to see on the internet.

[00:05:51] But desktop computers for people in South Africa and India at the time had never really experienced that.

[00:05:56] So when I bought it to like the phones, it just exploded.

[00:06:00] Yeah. And it seems like it all came from again you just having hands on keyboard so to speak, understanding how to use the technology and really being more inventor in some ways, right?

[00:06:10] Because I think a lot of software or tech entrepreneurs today, myself included, don't necessarily know how to code so to speak.

[00:06:19] And I think there's so many no coding environments and what it means to be a tech entrepreneur today is a little bit different than it was back then because then you really had to be more so technical in order to build things

[00:06:29] because there was no swear spaced about a website or no code environments, GitHub, etc. to put things together.

[00:06:35] Totally. Absolutely. And after I loved about it was a space that I understood really well on definitely a play based learner.

[00:06:43] I like to just figure things out of my own. Plenty of subjects in school that I did not do well at as a result.

[00:06:49] I just really love the freedom is what I was able to do with computers and just keep following your heart, your passion, like keep digging into problems you're trying to solve and one thing after the next.

[00:06:59] But yeah, that's where it all started for me.

[00:07:01] Awesome. And then you would go on to become CEO of a company called Chump which over time would be acquired by Apple. Tell us about Chump and that journey leading up to Apple acquiring it in 2012.

[00:07:14] Yeah, so look, I'd been around mobile phones and mobile apps for a long time. In fact, not a lot of people realize but Asia, Southeast Asia was really ahead of the curve compared to say the US.

[00:07:26] In fact, I remember coming to the US in about 2004 or 2005 and people were just like what you're building like stuff on the internet for phones and like symbiotic applications and Java application.

[00:07:37] People were still getting used to text messaging and I was like, this is odd because I grew up in the 90s with like a Nokia phone.

[00:07:44] Like at school, like playing snake under the table and I'm into paying attention in class.

[00:07:49] Like I was just really familiar with it. And so my iPhone and things like this were sort of coming along, harm all these sorts of things.

[00:07:58] I kept thinking about the people that were successful on desktop web in that generation of the internet. What would be the successful applications and how would they be different in the mobile world and I had a lot of experience in mobile and so.

[00:08:11] Obviously content discovery was a huge issue on the web with like companies like Google and Yahoo and everybody else solving those kinds of problems.

[00:08:18] When it comes to apps and media, it's a different problem. Right? There's no TF IDF term frequency and document frequency. There's no metadata anchor text. There's none of this kind of stuff.

[00:08:28] And so you have to come up with a completely different solution for how are we going to search for like apps and content and those kinds of things.

[00:08:35] And so I just really felt that based on the experience I'd have in life that this was going to be a huge problem worked on that. The business was going quite well, but Apple ended up stepping in and saying, hey, we can really use that technology over here and ended up with them.

[00:08:49] So what was that process like to sell a company to Apple? Because that's obviously an iconic company that puts privacy in the highest regard design the highest regard.

[00:08:59] It's not like selling to maybe an advertising holding company, I would imagine. Walk us through like that what that experience was like.

[00:09:06] At the time, I hadn't really heard of too many companies that had ever really sold to Apple. I mean, they've done more acquisitions in the last 10 years than what I'd seen in the previous 10 or 20 years.

[00:09:18] And so it definitely was a very unusual thing, I think. So what was it like? Well, what we were doing to get a lot of traction for our sort of content discovery technology was essentially powering other people's app stores and services.

[00:09:33] And so we would do licensing deals. So we actually had a really big licensing deal which was beginning to roll out with Verizon wireless. It was going to like power app search on Android phones Verizon.

[00:09:44] We also had a deal with Yahoo where we were powering some of the search results in Yahoo for app search, things like that.

[00:09:50] And process was we were basically trying to work on the same deal with the app. So we were saying to them like, hey, like we should power content discovery for you guys.

[00:09:59] And like here's the technology that works and I would say like over the course of six months we just became really close with the engineering team and different folks and it was all done in secrecy and couldn't sort of talk about this too much or at all I should say.

[00:10:13] But we became really close to the engineering team and it just got to a tipping point where they were like, hey, we're not going to license the technology.

[00:10:20] And I remember being in the room with executives there were also going, oh man, like I was really hoping we could like do this.

[00:10:26] And they were like actually would like to buy the company instead. And so it's quite a hard choice believe it or not because as much as I'm super inspired by Apple and I love the company.

[00:10:34] I really wanted to build a standalone company that could stand on its feet. So it was a really weird moment but that's kind of how it came about.

[00:10:41] And then you ended up staying there for it looks like three to four years. What was your experience like working in Apple where you focused on the product you had built or did you kind of branch out a little bit to some of the other product lines at Apple?

[00:10:54] Yeah, I ended up staying there a bit longer than that. I ended up staying over five years. It might have been six actually in the end.

[00:10:59] And anyway, something like that. I loved it. Like I loved working you know, it's the only time I'd ever had a job like before that it was like in startups and like it was the only time I'd ever actually worked for somebody else.

[00:11:10] And the story goes in the first year it was really about integrating the technology and figuring out where the team was going to go like you don't get to stay at the same team you were.

[00:11:20] You sort of get built into the company. And for me, it was really unclear because I've become more of a sort of technical product manager or technical product manager type CEO lead off and Apple doesn't really have that kind of role.

[00:11:34] And so the thing I think are pretty amazing of Apple was they allowed me to as long as you know, the team that tech was getting integrated correctly and I had all the support from that standpoint really explore Apple and where could I help out.

[00:11:48] And interestingly, while they're not mainly a technical background, I was invited onto the design team to be the design manager for Apple TV.

[00:11:57] And that was an incredible honor because I was like, well, like how do I lead these the best designers I've ever seen in my entire life as a non-trained designer like that. How's this going to work?

[00:12:10] But that's what happened and that's what kept me there because I loved it. It was like almost doing a startup in this big company.

[00:12:15] It's doing a startup but you're awesome. I'm sure learning so much from the people you work with in the organization which probably set you up for what you ended up doing next.

[00:12:24] It totally did. It was like, I never got a university degree. I'm a dropout. I was there for six months doing computer science.

[00:12:30] It's the closest thing to a university degree for me like being in a modernization line.

[00:12:35] Right. Apple University.

[00:12:37] Apple University was incredible.

[00:12:39] So after you left Apple University, you went on to found your current venture which is Caffeine, which I really want to dig into because did a little research on it.

[00:12:47] It looks super exciting and covers an overlays a lot of the areas that I pay particular attention to.

[00:12:52] So tell us in the audience what Caffeine is, what the impetus behind founding that was and what you're working on today with the business.

[00:12:59] Yeah, totally. So Caffeine is a place where you can watch for free live sports, not the major live sports like NFL and NBA.

[00:13:07] What I would say is the majority of live sports, which is things like action sports and X Games and World Surf League, street league basketball teams all out to like pickleball and all sorts of interesting things like that.

[00:13:20] So it brings really passionate communities together, create a home for live streaming of sports.

[00:13:25] You can watch it on a phone. You can watch it on the web.

[00:13:28] You can watch it on a couple of connected TVs as well.

[00:13:31] And it has over 40 million monthly active users here in the US under the age of 35.

[00:13:36] And so it's an ad order thing. You will see some ads on there and it does have some in-app purchase features too, but it's free to watch and a really cool sports streaming service that I think people really enjoy.

[00:13:46] And how did you get the idea for this concept?

[00:13:49] As a hobby, I'm a huge gamer.

[00:13:51] I played in some of the top World of Warcraft, Rating Guilds and all sorts of things over the years and I'm a gamer.

[00:13:57] And so basically when Twitch came along, I was working on Apple TV.

[00:14:02] They were moving from Justin TV over to Twitch and I'm also simultaneously in all of these executive conversations at Apple talking about the future of TV.

[00:14:11] And I just really felt that it was pretty clear like the way TV broadcasting live television broadcasting was happening on cable wasn't going to stay that way.

[00:14:21] We were going to move to streaming like movies and TV shows and there was going to be a new sort of broadcast networking merge.

[00:14:28] And so the question I had was like, is Twitch going to do that?

[00:14:31] Not just for gaming but for all of live broadcast TV?

[00:14:34] Or if they don't do it, who's going to do that?

[00:14:36] And I just sort of played it out like a big element I think of the future of live broadcast is interactivity, is social, is community, is bringing people together to talk and interact around each other.

[00:14:48] And at that point in time, and Apple may be very different on it today. This is like 10 years ago.

[00:14:53] They weren't bullish on the idea of going into social and community and thinking about all those aspects of things but I became kind of obsessed with it thinking like,

[00:15:03] wow whoever does this is going to be new technology and new business models and it could have a really positive and profound impact on humans.

[00:15:10] And so ultimately it was something that I couldn't work on at Apple and it's part of the reason why I left and part of the reason why I started caffeine.

[00:15:17] And so yeah, it's been quite a journey figuring out new technology and a new business model and the content rights and all the things that go with building what we're describing but it's really working and it's on its way now

[00:15:29] and it's taken a few pivots to get there but always with the same common vision of how we build the future next generation live broadcasting network.

[00:15:36] We'll be right back with the speed of culture after a few words from our sponsors.

[00:15:40] Yeah, I mean there's a lot of themes in terms of what you're working on one of which is just sounds like the long tail of sports.

[00:15:46] So you have FIFA and the NFL and the NBA but if you talk about you being a gamer in eSports obviously fall in that category or pickleball which is an emerging sport.

[00:15:56] So first of all how do you find an identifying decide I'm going to go after this particular property like is that based upon what your audience wants or is it based upon what you're interested in and think might be cool to Marques.

[00:16:11] The different phases that caffeine has been through the initial phase was about hey maybe this new technology could attract a new kind of content creator.

[00:16:21] It ended up attracting a lot of sort of small streamers in gamers and things like this familiar twitch but looking at an alternative.

[00:16:29] It was growing but not growing quite fast enough and it always has to have the bigger broader vision of how do you build something broader than just gaming gaming could be part of what I'm talking about for sure so can.

[00:16:41] So could news so could FIFA world soccer so could all these different things but what's the sort of wedge like the way to get into this market and really grow and not sort of cap out being just a place for the gamers which is still big but there's more stuff than just that out there.

[00:16:55] The phase two was we had a lot of investment to sort of buy content rights and as we started to buy sports rights.

[00:17:01] What I realized was a lot of these non sort of top 100 those major sports is believe it or not there's 11,000 of these are but that's what I'm saying like the majority you can say the long tail and it's what was like the majority of the sports throughout there like 11,000 of them compared to like the top 100.

[00:17:17] It's guys like they got really passionate audiences and they don't really have a home and I was like buying the content and really seeing like hey it's really hard to reach these audiences really hard to like sort of superserve these communities.

[00:17:31] There's a lot of problems with it and a lot of these guys we don't buy them.

[00:17:35] They're just putting the content on YouTube different places already it's really fragmented so it's all I've placed in my build their own website etc.

[00:17:41] And so it comes kind of like caffeine 3.0 which is like okay how do we work with these guys non exclusively like all the people that are already trying and not licensing it.

[00:17:51] And how do we sort of band in together in speakers that I've raised communities and that's something that we're being really good at doing over the last 18 months with new topology in this business model.

[00:18:03] And so yeah we have a content team that's looking to add content density but also add breadth of categories focused on what we think the audience will like.

[00:18:11] But we're specifically looking for folks that are out there trying non exclusively do things because we're not playing content rights we're just working with non exclusive partners aggregating them super serving them.

[00:18:22] Helping them get distribution.

[00:18:24] All of that.

[00:18:25] That's exactly it.

[00:18:26] And in terms of TV in general I mean I would imagine you getting exposed to Apple TV understanding where the TV market was going and understand we are moving to a streaming world opened your eyes up to the possibility of where this is all headed.

[00:18:41] Moving forward I mean where do you see TV heading I mean do you think linear TV is even going to exist five to ten years from now and how do you see this current I guess progression away from linear TV continuing to accelerate.

[00:18:55] Totally so yeah I mean I got to the front row seat at Apple on a lot of the most brilliant people I've ever met in my life how they think about the market and where it's all going and so even though I have mainly an engineering background with.

[00:19:10] A nice design a little bit there I also got to pick up a lot of commercial aspects of things that you wouldn't get to sort of see as a just a regular tech entrepreneur you have to be in commas.

[00:19:20] Between that now having lots of investment from cable companies in Disney and Fox and all these different guys in my board.

[00:19:28] I've seen and heard and looked at the market in a way that not all people probably have seen so where do I think it's going on.

[00:19:35] Look I think that linear TV as it stands is kind of going the way of the newspaper right like it's still going to be consumed by a lot of people for a long period of time but it is.

[00:19:47] As we go into generation upon generation like the next generation is not going to consume it like the previous generation it's changing.

[00:19:54] In so what's it changing to well there's really like two types of things that you would sort of consume on linear TV one is like movies and TV shows in a second is like.

[00:20:06] And I may be an oversimplification but I like this like live which is generally sports and news and then there's like movies and TV shows.

[00:20:15] It's movies and TV shows were the first to sort of go to streaming services like Netflix in other places because they actually got like the smallest share of the cable TV bundle.

[00:20:27] It was easiest for them to sort of live or as the sports guys get paid so much money that very hard to them to leave.

[00:20:34] Challenge some movies and TV shows and streaming services like who would Netflix and so on over the long time is that there's just been a real shift towards short and short of all content.

[00:20:46] Hick talk and so even when you're watching a movie and TV shows a kid these days you're also on tick tock and Instagram and whatever else you're doing but.

[00:20:54] There's more of a trend going for on demand content like shorter form like getting the content.

[00:21:00] The thing that's interesting about live is I think it's impossible to imagine a world where you don't want to see my family versus your family or my state versus your state or my college versus your college or.

[00:21:11] This person this friend versus friendly competition brings people together on an outcome that they're all interested in seeing what happens.

[00:21:20] And even though the behavior shifting towards short of all content live still brings people together for appointments scheduled events.

[00:21:27] And for a longer session like 15 plus minutes which is kind of crazy like I can't believe long form contents now at 15 plus minutes but that's how it's categorized as daily so that's.

[00:21:38] Over and over again.

[00:21:39] And so I think the live you're going to see it fragmented for a bit so like you've got the NFL Sunday ticket on YouTube right now you've got majorly baseball that Fox mainly handles you got MLS that Apple's now doing you've got.

[00:21:53] Money is PN all the NBA rights and things are over there.

[00:21:56] It's going to create a quite a fragmented world of people for the next little while but I think you will see sort of a reshaping in a re sort of framing of what we had on many TV but over streaming services and I think it's going to get brought to you not just on.

[00:22:10] Files and connected TVs but I think it's going to be really successful and VR is that's not to pick up as well because we're live experience with other people and that is going to be epic I think.

[00:22:19] Yeah I actually was just talking to the folks from Meta reality labs and they were saying the same thing that they think both gaming and live sports are just huge applications of you know all these I mean Apple just came out with a new device and that usually means that it's ready for the mainstream if they're coming out with it.

[00:22:37] So I think that that's a new world the other piece that I'm curious to get your thoughts on is just gambling gambling fancy sports the major leagues are now starting to adopt it and normalize it.

[00:22:49] And I mean how far are we away from somebody watching caffeine and betting on a pickleball I mean you see that in the future of your platform.

[00:22:56] Yeah I mean for us like we're going to be doing international next year will be a huge focus and getting further on to connected TVs.

[00:23:04] But further out like I think that partnering up with betting companies would be a phenomenal especially with the real time nature of caffeine that's a standout take the aspect of caffeine is that everyone's seeing it within only seconds of.

[00:23:18] The action and so betting would be incredible I think e-commerce opportunities around it to would also be amazing right so you're watching something live and.

[00:23:27] You want to buy a jersey or something that you're seeing for the live and on screen right now there's a lot of e-commerce type opportunities I think around it.

[00:23:35] We also think that AI to create like shoulder content around it also use for sort of discovery are all going to be like really interesting things that sort of make this format.

[00:23:45] Even more more exciting and more easy to people just get into but yeah betting I think will be huge but betting plus these other things are all.

[00:23:53] So kind of shifting gears a little bit just as we wrap up as an entrepreneur and running a company was like you guys raised over hundred fifty million dollars retro capital we're not.

[00:24:03] Uncertain macroeconomic landscape where you're getting you know your revenue primarily from advertisers you're trying to stay relevant with consumers it's a lot to juggle I think only the best entrepreneurs will get through times.

[00:24:14] Like ring today but the ones that do are going to have a huge business on the other side what do you do as an entrepreneur to I guess stay grounded.

[00:24:22] Make sure that you're deploying your resources in your time in the right way so you can execute on the vision that you have for the business.

[00:24:29] Yeah I mean for me I'm always thinking about the long term and I'm thinking about how to build a real business for the long term and there's choices that were made like years ago at caffeine to keep things lean right into really just focus on a user.

[00:24:50] And today you've got a business that has no marketing costs like I mean we have our phone that we're like but basically there's no quote unquote like marketing we don't even have a marketing.

[00:25:00] Leader on the executive team there's no content car it's all non exclusive content so it's like infrastructure which we're really good at and we own the full video stack much still driving down cost on that.

[00:25:12] In a fairly small team it's like 60 people and that's it and so that grows from like 3 million over 40 million in the last year has all happened.

[00:25:22] Without any marketing without any content costs and we're doing it more and more and more and so as we monetize with ads and also sell in our purchases even in this market that's really tough.

[00:25:32] Caffeine's thriving and I think it's gonna drive even more you're right you know as we sort of come out of it and so for me I'm like always thinking about the long term I'm thinking about the user.

[00:25:42] And I'm really trying to create a real business out of this and I've always been that way and I'm gonna be eight years in April next year and I'm just super passionate obsessed with it and just gonna keep doing that.

[00:25:53] Yeah and what are you doing to make sure that you're keeping your finger on the pulse of the consumer and the changes because we talked about so many different innovations whether it's you know VR or AR or gaming or streaming the world's changing so fast how you able to stay I guess on top of what's next.

[00:26:11] Yeah so first of all most I talk to our users every single day it's like I literally like wake up I log into cafe and I'm like talking to folks I'm always trying to have my finger on the pulse of what's happening.

[00:26:26] I love the data as well so I'm always looking at the data and seeing what's going on but then outside of that I'm a real user of like.

[00:26:34] Even though now like what do you want to resolve like I want all the platforms every day whether it's tick tock or YouTube or whatever and doing a lot of work in Hollywood and LA as well and having a lot of sort of celebrity investors and other people are really trying to keep my finger on the popular culture and what's happening.

[00:26:49] And it's just life for me like so it's just who I am and what I really enjoy doing so it's not really work to talk to users or look at the data or.

[00:26:58] Talk to different famous people in LA about what's going on or like look use all these different sort of social and internet services I just love it and.

[00:27:07] It just helps give me a good feel for what I think is coming and what's happening and connecting up with sort of the market information.

[00:27:14] And the data and what you hear from board members and other stuff that's getting on.

[00:27:18] So the wrap up here I mean I said awesome career and have worked with so many cool companies and you know I definitely get the feeling you're just getting started.

[00:27:26] Obviously we never know what we should know when we're young and we're kind of making up as we go along but if you had the opportunity to tell 20 year old Ben something based upon what you know today.

[00:27:39] What would you tell him in a way that maybe could help some of our younger listeners here at the podcast.

[00:27:44] I think the younger band like would hear the advice but probably wouldn't actually be able to do it because it was just always just so in a rush and like just so excited that like.

[00:27:55] I wouldn't think about things too much and just go like just keep going and just work all the time and just be like drinking from the fire hose but.

[00:28:02] I think in the end like being strategic and patient is really like the key.

[00:28:08] And that's what I'm saying like if you could think about a long term think about the user think about the problem that you're trying to solve and it's something that you just do the passion about like it's going to be there tomorrow it's going to be the next week it's going to be there in a month.

[00:28:20] It all doesn't actually have to happen today what is important is that your patient your strategic and you're making your right calls as you go through it.

[00:28:28] I think another like lesson is some self care like I mean in my twenties like I would go sometimes three days no sleep right like a lot of the time four hours and like that Brian like.

[00:28:41] I couldn't do that anymore and that wouldn't be the way to build a company but it felt like ingrained in the culture of Silicon Valley at that point that that's what you had to do to be hardcore.

[00:28:50] And I would just say like you do have to be hardcore and you have to work hard but you also have to get sleep it's your job to get sleep not.

[00:28:57] Burned out and tired all the time and like with your job to stay in the game and so be strategic be patient is my quick answer.

[00:29:05] And finally here is do you have a saying or a mantra do you like to live by the helps you get through this rugged journey as an entrepreneur.

[00:29:12] I have had written the top of my to do list eight years the dream is real always find a way.

[00:29:20] So it's about resilience right it's about believing yourself and being on waiver basically.

[00:29:25] That's it like I think you have to have a problem that you want to fix a user in mind that you want to be in service to a dream for like what that could look like.

[00:29:35] And just know that there's always ups is always downs like life can't be like if 10s like the best moment of ones a bad moment most people a lot of people just want to have fives like every day every day every day.

[00:29:46] An entrepreneur you're gonna have ends that you're gonna have a lot of ones to get to those 10s and so you have to believe and have that resilience that you will find a way.

[00:29:54] The bad times and the good times just breathe through it keeping strategic keeping patient and you get there.

[00:30:00] Well listen thank you so much for your time that it's been really awesome to get to know your journey and I'll definitely be cheering from the sidelines and following along as you continue to build caffeine whatever you do next.

[00:30:10] Thanks Matt appreciate it.

[00:30:12] On behalf of Susie and Ivy team thanks again to Ben Kieran CEO of caffeine for joining us today.

[00:30:16] Be sure to subscribe right with you to speed of culture podcast on your favorite podcast platform.

[00:30:20] So next time see you soon everyone take care.

[00:30:21] The speed of culture is brought to you by Susie as part of the Adweek podcast network and a guest creator network.

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