Leading Brand Transformation: A Masterclass with Doug Zarkin

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[00:01:38] How many times have we sat in a boardroom where ideas are being thrown and it's like,

[00:01:42] oh, we got to do it. That's great. We got to do it. That's great. And then you ask

[00:01:45] yourself, is it something that you must and need to do? Is it something that you should

[00:01:50] or could do or is it something that you want? And when in business you spend too much time

[00:01:55] on the wants and not enough focus on the must and the needs. That's when your business

[00:01:58] goes sideways.

[00:02:01] To thrive in a rapidly evolving landscape, brands must move at an ever increasing

[00:02:05] pace. I'm Matt Britton, founder and CEO of Suzy. Join me and key industry leaders as

[00:02:10] we dive deep into the shifting consumer trends within their industry. Why it matters now

[00:02:15] and how you can keep up. Welcome to the speed of culture.

[00:02:24] Today we're back with a very special guest, actually return guest, the author of

[00:02:28] the recently published book, Moving Your Brand Out of the Friend Zone, Doug Zarkin.

[00:02:32] Doug, great to see you again. Great to see you, my friend. How you been? I've been

[00:02:35] not too bad. You know, it's interesting. I wrote a book in the past. I'm always

[00:02:38] asked what was the experience like writing a book? And I'm just curious to hear

[00:02:42] from your mouth. How is writing a book? I guess what you expect it and in what

[00:02:46] ways did it throw some curveballs at you? So I wrote the book in 16 weeks.

[00:02:52] I wrote the outline for the book in about 15 minutes. I had the title of the

[00:02:55] book before I even started it. But for somebody who cannot spell and has

[00:03:00] a multiple time assault victim of autocorrect, it was a terrifyingly

[00:03:05] exciting experience to write it. There was moments of clarity and moments

[00:03:11] of what am I doing? I will share with you candidly that the day before

[00:03:16] I had to turn the book in for final, final, I was reading the book

[00:03:22] at the pool Labor Day weekend and I read the first three chapters and

[00:03:25] I thought they were dog shit. And I said to my wife at like two

[00:03:28] o'clock in the afternoon, honey, I got to go home. And she goes,

[00:03:31] what are you doing? I got to just rewrite this. It's not what I want

[00:03:34] to say. And I rewrote three chapters in about five hours.

[00:03:39] And I'm glad I did, because it's kind of like the opening lean in. But

[00:03:43] what a terrifying experience. But at the same time, I'm glad I did it.

[00:03:47] Don't have any plans to do another one, but I'm glad I did it.

[00:03:49] What about the writing experience? Do you think led you to maybe make

[00:03:52] a misstep in how you open the book? Is it because you rushed

[00:03:55] the beginning or is it because you learned more about the concept

[00:03:57] as you wrote the whole book?

[00:03:59] I think I got smarter as I went along. When I wrote the beginning

[00:04:03] chapters, I didn't have the full narrative in mind. I was still

[00:04:07] kind of working on my writing style, trying to figure out, did I

[00:04:10] want to write as I speak? Did I want it to be conversational? How

[00:04:13] formal did I want it to be? I was very self conscious about my

[00:04:19] experience and making it all about what I've done versus what

[00:04:22] I've learned. And that's very different. And so I found the

[00:04:26] beginning of the book to be a little bit too self serving. It

[00:04:29] was a little bit too narcissistic. And it didn't welcome

[00:04:32] the reader in it didn't give them that lean in that you and I

[00:04:36] both know in anything that you do that moment of lean in factor

[00:04:39] to get somebody to want to pay attention is so important. It

[00:04:42] didn't have it. But I had a moment of clarity when I was

[00:04:45] reading it at the pool, I started to see what I wanted to

[00:04:49] do. And I will tell you to write three chapters in four or

[00:04:52] five hours, that's the most I've ever done the least

[00:04:54] amount of time. And I'm really pleased with how it

[00:04:57] turned out. Awesome. And just diving into the book. So just

[00:05:00] the title itself break free from the friend zone. It's

[00:05:03] yeah, we've all kind of been there. I know where it's

[00:05:05] like relationship standpoint, in terms of you know, you have

[00:05:08] feelings for somebody, but they just want to be friends and

[00:05:10] you don't really know and then you get to the point in the

[00:05:12] end. What's the correlation between that? And a brand and

[00:05:16] their customer and what made you kind of create that

[00:05:18] analogy as a thesis for your book?

[00:05:21] So I you know, as handsome as you are, my friend, you

[00:05:24] know, we have all experienced that moment of where our

[00:05:27] feelings aren't matched by the person on the other end of

[00:05:30] the table. And for me, that analogy really materializes as

[00:05:34] when you look at sales plan, and you find yourself, you

[00:05:38] know, missing revenue targets. And part of the reason you

[00:05:40] miss revenue targets is because when you look at your

[00:05:44] appeal to people that aren't in a relationship with you,

[00:05:47] you overestimate it, and you greatly overestimate your

[00:05:50] appeal with your existing customers to come back. And

[00:05:53] so the analogy of sort of feeling like you're in a

[00:05:56] deeper state of relationship commitment with somebody than

[00:05:58] you are, the analog of being in the friend zone, to me

[00:06:02] just popped. And it was a way of really simplifying the

[00:06:05] complexity of that consumer brand relationship that is so

[00:06:09] hard to figure out. Because you and I both know, and I

[00:06:13] think your listeners know that marketing at its core is

[00:06:17] about motivating the consumer to do what you want them to

[00:06:20] do or what you're asking them to do when you want

[00:06:22] them to do it. Books, classes, seminars, bottom line

[00:06:26] is marketing has got to get somebody to do what you

[00:06:28] want them to do when you want them to do it. To do that,

[00:06:31] you have to have such a blend of arrogance and humility,

[00:06:35] confidence, and insecurity. And that's no different than

[00:06:38] when you go head first into a relationship in your

[00:06:40] personal life. Right. It's a fascinating correlation. And

[00:06:43] you also talk about the importance of adopting a

[00:06:46] business mindset. And I've seen that, you know, I

[00:06:49] spent 15 years in the agency world where you see so

[00:06:52] many concepts that get presented, and they're like

[00:06:54] whiz bang ideas, but there's never any thought given to

[00:06:57] how is it going to impact the bottom line. And I think

[00:06:59] a lot of advertising has been disconnected from that.

[00:07:03] You work for some of the biggest brands in the world

[00:07:05] leading their marketing. Is that the impetus behind

[00:07:08] focusing on that business mindset when it comes to

[00:07:11] brand building? You know, FOMO is not a marketing

[00:07:14] strategy. And I talk about that in the book and you

[00:07:16] know, how many times have we sat in a boardroom

[00:07:17] where ideas are being thrown and it's like, oh,

[00:07:19] got to do it. That's great. We got to do it.

[00:07:21] That's great. And then you ask yourself, is it

[00:07:23] something that you must and need to do? Is it

[00:07:26] something that you should or could do? Or is it

[00:07:28] something that you want? And when in business you

[00:07:31] spend too much time on the wants and not enough

[00:07:33] focus on the musts and the needs, that's when your

[00:07:35] business goes sideways. And for me, that mindset of

[00:07:39] building that marketing layer cake and really being

[00:07:42] disciplined is at the core of driving marketing

[00:07:44] effectiveness. But for somebody who's young in their

[00:07:47] career, sitting in these meetings trying to make

[00:07:49] sense out of a brainstormed idea of how much time

[00:07:52] and energy to action against it, hopefully, and I

[00:07:55] call it a guide because I don't believe there's a

[00:07:57] right way or a wrong way. I believe there's just a

[00:07:59] way and it's a journey. I hope this helps them.

[00:08:03] Yeah. And you talk about when you talk about the

[00:08:04] layer cake, you also kind of go through like these

[00:08:07] high performance habits that are potential for

[00:08:10] brand growth. Can you elaborate on what some of

[00:08:12] those are and which ones maybe are the most

[00:08:13] underutilized in your experience? So I think to

[00:08:17] me any success I've had in my career, and I

[00:08:20] mean this sincerely, has been because I have

[00:08:22] surrounded myself with great people. Building a

[00:08:25] high performing team is a skill and it's a skill

[00:08:28] that you gain proficiency in over time. But for

[00:08:31] me there's sort of three core concepts in what I

[00:08:34] look for when I build a high performing team.

[00:08:36] First, I hire for passion. You can teach

[00:08:39] somebody a skill, you can't teach them the will.

[00:08:41] And the challenge is that if you have

[00:08:44] somebody who has a lot of passion but doesn't

[00:08:47] have a lot of skill, you have to work that

[00:08:49] much harder to try to get that greater balance.

[00:08:51] It doesn't need skill of what you're selling,

[00:08:53] right Doug? Because like if you're a toothpaste

[00:08:55] brand, people aren't necessarily passionate about

[00:08:57] toothpaste but passionate about brand building and

[00:08:59] connecting with consumers and other parts about that.

[00:09:02] Well it bugs me that there are certain career

[00:09:05] jobs that I let's say would be dream jobs,

[00:09:07] but because I haven't worked necessarily in the

[00:09:08] vertical your resume doesn't appear to the top.

[00:09:11] But if everybody who sells soft drinks worked

[00:09:14] for a soft drink company you would never get

[00:09:15] innovation. And it takes a leader to recognize

[00:09:19] that there are translatable skills from other

[00:09:21] industries that you can bring in to help around

[00:09:23] you out. So it starts with passion. The second

[00:09:25] thing is requiring purpose. I need people around

[00:09:28] me that go about their day with intent. We never

[00:09:30] have the size of the teams that we need.

[00:09:33] Everything is always, I've got 20 minutes worth

[00:09:35] of work that I need to do in 10 minutes. You

[00:09:38] need people who are very purposeful in how

[00:09:40] they go about their lives both outside and

[00:09:43] inside the office. And then it's about celebrating

[00:09:45] progress. Perfection is not attainable in marketing.

[00:09:49] It just isn't. There is no such thing as

[00:09:51] the perfect ad. You can get really close, but

[00:09:54] there's never such thing as perfection. So as

[00:09:57] a leader if you're only focused on 100% results

[00:10:00] you're going to miss the fact that if your

[00:10:02] sales target was plus five but you hit a

[00:10:04] plus two you still are a plus two. Celebrate

[00:10:08] that progress with the team then dig deep

[00:10:11] to figure out all right what did we need

[00:10:13] to do? Where didn't we perform? But if you

[00:10:16] don't take the moment to celebrate you're

[00:10:17] all about negativity. You're all about what

[00:10:19] you didn't do versus what you accomplished.

[00:10:21] We'll be right back with the speed of

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[00:12:07] So I think I saw you on TV talking

[00:12:09] about Super Bowl spots.

[00:12:11] I know you're a football fan just

[00:12:12] looking at the Lawrence Tarah

[00:12:14] picture behind you.

[00:12:15] Because you know it's interesting when

[00:12:16] you talk about brand building we often

[00:12:18] create an equivalent to TV advertising

[00:12:21] and the plate that we really see TV

[00:12:23] spots is during the Super Bowl.

[00:12:24] What was your take on the Super Bowl

[00:12:26] spots this year in 2024

[00:12:28] and how does that kind of weigh

[00:12:30] against I guess your overall thesis

[00:12:31] in the book? There were more misses

[00:12:34] than hits.

[00:12:35] I mean there were some brands I

[00:12:37] just I can't understand how this

[00:12:38] creative actually made it out of

[00:12:40] concept.

[00:12:41] There was one brand in particular

[00:12:42] that ran multiple spots during the

[00:12:44] Super Bowl.

[00:12:45] Probably spent 35 to 40 million

[00:12:47] dollars.

[00:12:48] It was some of the worst creative I've

[00:12:50] ever seen.

[00:12:51] And what made it bad? I would say

[00:12:53] executionally

[00:12:54] it was very sophomoric. You couldn't

[00:12:57] really dissect the strategy or what

[00:12:58] it did.

[00:12:59] It happened to be for a service and

[00:13:01] it didn't tell you anything about

[00:13:02] this service.

[00:13:04] It used a reverency

[00:13:06] in its illustrative style not to

[00:13:09] give away who I'm talking about,

[00:13:10] but almost to the point of agnostic

[00:13:12] of a narrative.

[00:13:13] And you know to create that critical

[00:13:16] thing which is consumers make

[00:13:18] emotional decisions before they make

[00:13:19] rational choices,

[00:13:21] you still have to give them emotional

[00:13:22] decision about what.

[00:13:23] And for some of these I walked away

[00:13:25] saying what the hell was that?

[00:13:27] It didn't make me want to learn

[00:13:28] more. It actually made me angry

[00:13:30] that marketers never have enough

[00:13:32] money to do what we want them to do.

[00:13:33] How does somebody get this much money

[00:13:35] approved

[00:13:36] with this story? I just didn't get it.

[00:13:38] And do you think it's really a

[00:13:39] notion of

[00:13:40] I guess like some type of Stockholm

[00:13:42] syndrome that large brands have where

[00:13:44] they kind of

[00:13:45] create an echo chamber of feedback on

[00:13:47] something that's completely

[00:13:48] disconnected from the real world and

[00:13:50] what their consumer is looking for?

[00:13:51] Like is that possibly how it gets out?

[00:13:53] I mean look in society today there is

[00:13:55] only one moment where you have

[00:13:57] appointment viewing for commercials

[00:13:59] and that's the Super Bowl.

[00:14:00] So much so that one of the big

[00:14:02] evolutions we saw this year was

[00:14:04] a lot more money and time spent on

[00:14:06] trailers

[00:14:07] for your Super Bowl ads than the

[00:14:09] ads themselves.

[00:14:10] It almost created a movie-like

[00:14:11] atmosphere where you went to the

[00:14:13] Super Bowl waiting for the debut of

[00:14:14] the spot because you had all the

[00:14:16] great teasers and some spots had

[00:14:17] better teasers

[00:14:18] than they did the spots themselves. I

[00:14:21] think

[00:14:22] you can get lost in the allure of

[00:14:25] I'm on the Super Bowl and it's a

[00:14:27] badge of honor

[00:14:28] not realizing that if you are

[00:14:30] mediocre you lose.

[00:14:31] If you're bad you really lose. That

[00:14:34] winning formula

[00:14:35] is so so small a window

[00:14:38] that your chances of being successful

[00:14:41] agnostic of testing and perfecting I

[00:14:44] feel like is so slim.

[00:14:45] Yeah absolutely. So what are some

[00:14:47] success stories

[00:14:49] more broadly speaking that you've

[00:14:51] seen brands execute

[00:14:52] where they've been able to

[00:14:53] successfully get out of the friend

[00:14:55] zone

[00:14:56] you know create that real winning

[00:14:57] relationship with consumers that has

[00:15:00] long-term commercial viability.

[00:15:01] I'm going to give you two examples

[00:15:02] that I mentioned in the book and

[00:15:04] it's because I think

[00:15:05] they practice both the arrogance and

[00:15:07] the humility.

[00:15:08] The first one is Delta. I am a Delta

[00:15:10] loyalist.

[00:15:11] I will go out of my way to fly the

[00:15:13] airline

[00:15:14] hashtag not a sponsored ad because they

[00:15:16] make me feel valuable

[00:15:18] and during the pandemic when they

[00:15:21] could have

[00:15:21] really blanked out everybody's status

[00:15:25] what did they do? They grandfathered your

[00:15:27] status. They made it actually

[00:15:28] easy for you to remember that as

[00:15:30] your life was getting back on track

[00:15:32] that they were a valuable partner.

[00:15:34] They go out of their way to

[00:15:36] accommodate and maybe that's because

[00:15:38] of the amount I fly but I feel like

[00:15:40] when I travel with them

[00:15:42] I always have somebody that's taking

[00:15:43] care of me okay

[00:15:44] and even though they've gotten a lot

[00:15:46] of negative press for some of the

[00:15:48] way they've done

[00:15:49] readjusting their loyalty programs I

[00:15:51] actually think as far as an airline

[00:15:53] goals

[00:15:53] they actually really do think human.

[00:15:55] They actually

[00:15:56] treat me as if I was their only

[00:15:59] flyer

[00:16:00] and some of the accommodations and

[00:16:02] some of the flexibilities and some

[00:16:04] of the you know we want to get you

[00:16:05] home

[00:16:06] to see your kids so let me get you on

[00:16:07] this flight. Just those small moments of

[00:16:09] care and connection not to mention the

[00:16:11] thank you note that comes on your chair

[00:16:13] when you show up as a frequent flyer

[00:16:15] those things mean a lot. Another one

[00:16:17] that I think has done a really good

[00:16:18] job

[00:16:19] of kind of moving itself out of the

[00:16:21] friend zone

[00:16:23] similar in vein is Marriott. When

[00:16:25] Marriott expanded and created Bonvoy

[00:16:27] and brought in

[00:16:28] other hotels like W and Weston

[00:16:31] there was a real fear that the

[00:16:34] volume was going to dilute the value

[00:16:37] of your patronage and again I think

[00:16:39] they do a really good job

[00:16:41] in small little touches early check-in

[00:16:44] late check out a couple free bottles

[00:16:45] of water

[00:16:46] small things that don't necessarily

[00:16:48] create material value

[00:16:50] but they create material love. Why

[00:16:53] those brands come to mind is because

[00:16:54] they're in a service culture mindset

[00:16:56] yeah experience too right? Experience. My

[00:16:59] Pythagorean theorem in the book is

[00:17:01] the brand value equation

[00:17:02] brand value which is whether you make

[00:17:04] 50,000 or 5 million everybody wants it

[00:17:07] equals experience divided by price. If

[00:17:09] you deliver

[00:17:10] an amazing experience you can charge a

[00:17:12] premium price and still have a

[00:17:13] positive brand value equation

[00:17:15] they have realized those brands that

[00:17:17] they live in an experience economy

[00:17:20] I think a brand like Starbucks is a

[00:17:23] brand that

[00:17:23] forgot the notion of the experience

[00:17:26] economy

[00:17:27] and really lost the cache

[00:17:30] of I go to Starbucks and I feel

[00:17:32] really good about being there not

[00:17:33] necessarily just because I'm drinking a

[00:17:34] good cup of coffee

[00:17:36] but there's that neighborhood coffee

[00:17:37] feel vibe I feel like when I carry

[00:17:39] the cup

[00:17:40] I'm showing a proud badge of honor

[00:17:42] Starbucks we all know is called

[00:17:43] five bucks

[00:17:44] and Duncan sees the opportunity to sort

[00:17:47] of be the anti-Starbucks and be the

[00:17:49] everyman's coffee

[00:17:50] and I mean look go on talk about

[00:17:52] Super Bowl success what they did was

[00:17:54] just a stroke of genius

[00:17:55] absolute genius. Why do you say that

[00:17:57] and what was the insight behind

[00:17:59] what they did? They took a highly

[00:18:02] produced couple in Ben and Jen

[00:18:04] and gave you a peek under the hood of

[00:18:07] do you think this really happens

[00:18:09] their use of cameos I mean

[00:18:11] the Matt Damon cameo when he utters

[00:18:13] the bastardized line from Good Will

[00:18:15] Hunting you know how about them

[00:18:16] donuts

[00:18:17] then you look over and you got Tom

[00:18:19] Brady then you listen to Ben who

[00:18:21] dials up the Boston accent

[00:18:23] just the authenticity Duncan really grew

[00:18:26] out of that New England culture

[00:18:28] and they've owned it they've not tried

[00:18:30] to be a foofy shishi brand

[00:18:32] they're a blue collar brand they have a

[00:18:34] great sense of humor

[00:18:35] and irreverence about themselves and I

[00:18:37] think consumers

[00:18:38] feel good that when they carry a

[00:18:41] Duncan cup of coffee

[00:18:43] that bad badge says something about who

[00:18:45] they are

[00:18:46] that they're smart enough not to

[00:18:47] spend five bucks on a you know

[00:18:49] double skim vanilla skim latte and

[00:18:52] I'm just getting you know a good

[00:18:53] cup of coffee from Duncan and getting

[00:18:54] a bagel or getting a munchkin and

[00:18:56] feeling great about it

[00:18:57] I love that spot too when you jump

[00:18:58] experience or marry out in Delta

[00:19:00] totally makes sense

[00:19:01] but what does experience look like for

[00:19:03] a brand that sells

[00:19:04] shampoo or bottle water or something

[00:19:07] that was more low involvement category

[00:19:09] how can they look at that experience

[00:19:11] and brand equation that you laid

[00:19:12] out

[00:19:13] when you don't control your point of

[00:19:14] distribution the experience that you

[00:19:16] cultivate

[00:19:17] has to be in the way in which you

[00:19:20] educate a consumer before

[00:19:22] or you romance a consumer after

[00:19:24] content is a huge part of it

[00:19:26] content is a big one advice and counsel

[00:19:29] I would say honestly your customer

[00:19:31] service

[00:19:32] I had the privilege of spending a month

[00:19:33] in Japan learning the Japanese

[00:19:35] philosophy of customer service

[00:19:37] and interesting in Japan they look at

[00:19:40] customer service as an opportunity to

[00:19:41] strengthen the relationship not triage

[00:19:43] a problem

[00:19:44] in the states we look at it as an

[00:19:46] opportunity to triage

[00:19:48] if something breaks if I have a

[00:19:50] problem and I call the customer

[00:19:52] service line number one do I get

[00:19:53] somebody live number two

[00:19:55] do they speak the same language number

[00:19:57] three

[00:19:58] do they stop reading from a script and

[00:19:59] listen to me

[00:20:01] and one of the stories I tell in the

[00:20:03] book is something about a ceiling fan

[00:20:05] that I bought from restoration

[00:20:06] hardware

[00:20:07] that was two years old that fell

[00:20:09] because the mount broke

[00:20:11] and I was ready to buy a new one

[00:20:12] and I had called and said

[00:20:14] my ceiling fan broke can you tell me

[00:20:16] which one that I bought

[00:20:18] I need to buy a new one and the

[00:20:19] customer services person on the other

[00:20:21] end was like oh my god are you

[00:20:22] okay I said yeah it was in my

[00:20:23] master bedroom my wife and I weren't

[00:20:24] there

[00:20:25] she's like you bought this two years ago

[00:20:27] I said yeah I said

[00:20:28] do you still sell it she said yes I

[00:20:30] said can I buy it

[00:20:32] and she goes no what do you mean no

[00:20:34] she goes it shouldn't fall off the

[00:20:35] mount I'm sending you a new one

[00:20:37] didn't ask for a picture didn't ask

[00:20:39] for anything back

[00:20:41] just didn't want me to feel like I

[00:20:44] spent a lot of money on something

[00:20:46] and the quality wasn't there and I

[00:20:47] will tell you

[00:20:48] I will forever go back to restoration

[00:20:50] hardware

[00:20:51] because of the way they treated me

[00:20:53] right and they're premium brands when

[00:20:55] you do your equation

[00:20:56] in order for it to play out given the

[00:20:58] expectation you have for what you paid

[00:21:00] the experience needs to be that much

[00:21:01] better

[00:21:02] yeah I had another story where I you

[00:21:03] know my son is basically eats like

[00:21:05] five things and one of the things he

[00:21:06] eats is a particular peanut butter

[00:21:08] brand

[00:21:08] and we opened the jar of peanut

[00:21:10] butter and we found a piece of

[00:21:12] plastic

[00:21:13] in the peanut butter it clearly was

[00:21:14] from one of the like nozzles or

[00:21:16] something it sprayed off and

[00:21:18] so it took me about 20 minutes to

[00:21:19] get the customer service number for

[00:21:20] that brand I finally got the number

[00:21:22] got somebody on the phone

[00:21:24] they said oh my god this is terrible

[00:21:26] do you still have the container I said

[00:21:28] yes

[00:21:29] they said would you mind FedExing it

[00:21:30] back to us said no we'll send you a

[00:21:31] label

[00:21:32] great I send a label three months go

[00:21:34] by I don't hear anything

[00:21:35] so I call back and I said listen what

[00:21:38] happened

[00:21:39] and they're like no one's ever

[00:21:40] gotten back to you I'm like no and

[00:21:41] they're like well we're going to

[00:21:42] send you a bunch of coupons for

[00:21:43] free

[00:21:44] insert brand named peanut butter and

[00:21:46] I was like that's so lame

[00:21:48] my son could have choked I didn't want

[00:21:49] to make a big deal about I just

[00:21:50] wanted them to know

[00:21:52] but they didn't care you know if my

[00:21:53] son wasn't such a picky eater I

[00:21:55] wouldn't buy the brand of peanut

[00:21:56] butter anymore

[00:21:56] but think about all the times that

[00:21:59] we've had bad experiences at a

[00:22:00] restaurant

[00:22:01] or have bought something that's broken

[00:22:03] or not lived up to our

[00:22:04] expectations

[00:22:05] does the customer service experience

[00:22:08] leave you feeling valued or

[00:22:10] valueless

[00:22:11] yeah I think it's so interesting and

[00:22:13] I love the whole take on

[00:22:14] if there's a problem that something

[00:22:16] breaks in a relationship

[00:22:18] or in a customer business

[00:22:20] relationship a lot of people look at

[00:22:21] it as okay we'll just put a bandaid on

[00:22:23] this thing when the reality is

[00:22:25] this is a chance to end up ahead of

[00:22:27] where you were before

[00:22:28] because if you over deliver to a

[00:22:30] problem then the customer usually

[00:22:32] forgets about the problem they're

[00:22:33] just focused on how you provide the

[00:22:34] solution

[00:22:35] and it straightens the brand to an

[00:22:36] entire new level and that has a

[00:22:38] a creative effect over time

[00:22:40] yeah it's a small moment of care and

[00:22:41] connection that could lead to big

[00:22:43] wins

[00:22:43] yeah absolutely so looking for you

[00:22:46] know in 2024 everyone's talking about AI

[00:22:48] and your ability to theoretically

[00:22:50] customize at scale

[00:22:52] obviously AI also presents a risk of

[00:22:55] chat bots where there's no human in the

[00:22:57] loop and companies

[00:22:58] in their quest for efficiency being

[00:23:01] less personal and not even being a

[00:23:02] friend but being sort of like

[00:23:04] I guess a relationship between data

[00:23:06] and a human because they're relying

[00:23:07] so much

[00:23:08] what are your I guess hopes and fears

[00:23:10] in terms of how brands

[00:23:11] can leverage AI in the context of

[00:23:13] the philosophies that you

[00:23:15] laid out in the book

[00:23:16] so I think marketers have to embrace

[00:23:18] AI

[00:23:19] okay I think to ignore it is silly

[00:23:22] I think for a marketer to embrace AI

[00:23:24] you have to recognize that AI is not

[00:23:26] going to do your job

[00:23:28] for you what it does is it allows you

[00:23:31] to iterate

[00:23:32] and see things from multiple angles if

[00:23:34] you are skilled at AI

[00:23:36] you can take a piece of content put in

[00:23:38] a couple queries

[00:23:39] and get five or six different versions

[00:23:41] of said content that

[00:23:43] play with certain emotions certain

[00:23:45] focus to help to round out

[00:23:48] what you're doing and I think for us

[00:23:51] options are a good thing but it also

[00:23:54] could torture you to death

[00:23:55] so you've got to be careful not to

[00:23:57] look at AI to be a problem solver

[00:24:00] but to possibly be an assistant

[00:24:03] I happen to like AI a lot for helping

[00:24:06] to take a

[00:24:07] email where I want to convey

[00:24:09] something that potentially could be

[00:24:11] challenging to convey an email

[00:24:13] and optimize it for tone content

[00:24:16] professionalism

[00:24:17] you know we've all in our history have

[00:24:18] fired off angry emails and maybe we

[00:24:20] regret it

[00:24:21] I know for me being able to use AI to

[00:24:24] help take something that

[00:24:25] maybe is aggressive and still get the

[00:24:27] point across without

[00:24:28] possibly creating ill will is an

[00:24:31] incredible use of the tool

[00:24:33] yeah absolutely I wish I could use

[00:24:35] it in my personal life right now

[00:24:36] there actually are lots of ways to

[00:24:38] use it but they're just slowly

[00:24:39] kind of coming on board but I think

[00:24:41] we'll probably hear a lot more about

[00:24:42] that this year

[00:24:43] so shifting gears as we wrap up here

[00:24:45] Doug you know the fact that you've had a

[00:24:47] great career in brand building and

[00:24:49] working for as I mentioned earlier

[00:24:50] really prolific brand we first met when

[00:24:52] you were leading the Victoria's Secret

[00:24:53] Pink brand

[00:24:54] over a decade ago after all you've

[00:24:56] accomplished kind of what gave you

[00:24:58] the ambition

[00:24:59] and motivation to do something like

[00:25:01] writing a book putting yourself out

[00:25:02] there going out and doing a media

[00:25:04] tour

[00:25:05] a lot of people think about doing

[00:25:06] things like that but never kind of

[00:25:09] get through to the other side

[00:25:10] so what is it about you and I guess

[00:25:13] either the way you were raised or the

[00:25:14] way your career has formed

[00:25:16] that kind of gives you the motivation

[00:25:18] and confidence to do that that maybe

[00:25:19] we can impart in some of our younger

[00:25:20] listeners here

[00:25:21] so they can kind of put their best

[00:25:22] selves out there yeah

[00:25:24] Matt such a great question I think for

[00:25:26] me to whatever degree of

[00:25:28] accomplishment I may have in my

[00:25:29] career

[00:25:30] I hold equally to the amazing leaders

[00:25:34] that I've worked for

[00:25:35] and frankly the really shitty bosses

[00:25:36] that I worked for and

[00:25:38] I probably can count on one hand

[00:25:42] not using all my fingers the people that

[00:25:44] I've worked for that I admire and that

[00:25:46] I would consider mentors

[00:25:47] I can count on two hands the people

[00:25:49] I've worked for that are just people

[00:25:51] that I

[00:25:51] never wanted to be but learn so much

[00:25:54] from

[00:25:55] if I can help somebody avoid

[00:25:59] mistakes that I've made in my career

[00:26:01] not learning experiences but mistakes

[00:26:03] and they're different a learning

[00:26:04] experience is when you do something

[00:26:05] wrong once a mistake is when you do

[00:26:06] the same thing wrong

[00:26:07] multiple times if I can help if I

[00:26:10] can provide

[00:26:11] a little bit of a clear way to

[00:26:15] possibly frame an idea or solve a

[00:26:18] problem

[00:26:20] and help somebody to help somebody I

[00:26:22] love teaching I love lecturing I've

[00:26:23] been very fortunate

[00:26:25] I've taught everywhere from ivy league

[00:26:26] to my daughter's high school class

[00:26:28] and when you connect with somebody

[00:26:30] it's amazing you know best part of

[00:26:32] my job is leading a high performing

[00:26:34] team

[00:26:34] creating a team high performing making

[00:26:36] them and then

[00:26:37] really helping them grow and learn

[00:26:39] the book for me was an opportunity to

[00:26:42] give a little bit back

[00:26:43] and maybe help if I help somebody

[00:26:46] figure something out

[00:26:47] and avoid some of the pain that I've

[00:26:48] had in my career then I'm doing

[00:26:50] something right

[00:26:51] and I can sleep well tonight knowing

[00:26:52] that you know maybe I've given back

[00:26:54] absolutely well I definitely think you

[00:26:56] have and I you know I really want

[00:26:57] to thank you for taking the time

[00:26:58] to continue to share your learnings

[00:27:00] and wisdom here on the podcast once

[00:27:02] again and

[00:27:03] hopefully we'll have you back yet

[00:27:04] again at some time in the future so

[00:27:05] thanks again

[00:27:06] you guys are doing great work you're

[00:27:08] always at the center of what people

[00:27:09] think and how they think and

[00:27:11] so much of our success collectively is

[00:27:13] in understanding the how not just the

[00:27:14] what so I appreciate the opportunity to

[00:27:16] be out with you today

[00:27:17] absolutely everyone please go and check

[00:27:19] out

[00:27:20] Doug's book Moving Your Brand Out of

[00:27:22] the Fred Zone available on Amazon

[00:27:23] everywhere books are sold be sure to

[00:27:25] check it out so

[00:27:26] on behalf of Suzy and Ida Weeteen

[00:27:27] back again the great Doug Zarkin

[00:27:29] marketer and author for joining us

[00:27:30] once again here today

[00:27:32] be sure to subscribe, rate, and view

[00:27:33] the Speed of Culture podcast on your

[00:27:34] favorite podcast platform

[00:27:36] until next time season one take care

[00:28:06] On behalf of the team here at Suzy, thanks for listening.

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