Curious Minds, Bold Moves: Suzanne Kounkel’s Guide to Market Leadership

[00:00:01] First and foremost is that our people have to believe the promise of the brand. So they are always going to be our strongest brand investors. They will always spend a lot more time with their clients than any marketing organization.

[00:00:12] So that's a big piece of who we are and what we're trying to do from a marketing perspective. To thrive in a rapidly evolving landscape, brands must move in an ever-increasing pace. I'm Matt Britton, founder and CEO of Suzy.

[00:00:27] Join me and key industry leaders as we dive deep into the shifting consumer trends within their industry. Why it matters now and how you can keep up. Welcome to the Speed of Culture.

[00:00:41] Today we're excited to be joined by Suzanne Kounkel, the global and U.S. chief marketing officer at Deloitte where she's been for almost 30 years. She's future focus and instills into all of Deloitte's brand marketing, strengthening the connection between marketing and sales.

[00:00:55] And Suzanne, it's so great to see you today. Thanks Matt. It's great to see you and to be here. Absolutely. So 30 years is no short stint and you're still going strong at Deloitte.

[00:01:05] In this world, we see so many people kind of jumping around, roll the roll every couple years. What do you think is giving you such staying power at Deloitte?

[00:01:12] Well, it's a good question Matt and part of my advice to people that are up and coming is to be curious. So to be honest, I have often thought about where else should I be and whether Deloitte was the right place to be and not would be.

[00:01:25] Of course. Anybody is to sort of always re-up your engagement and your commitment. But there were a number of reasons why I have stayed at Deloitte for so long and it has been one of those things where I've sort of said,

[00:01:35] I've had seven major roles and I don't believe that I would have been able to have those and the length in that 30 years had I not stayed at Deloitte. Because if you think about what makes you successful in the work environment,

[00:01:48] a big part of it is your network, a big part of it is your reputation, and third and probably in that order is your skill level. Right? So because I stayed at Deloitte, I brought my reputation and my network with me,

[00:02:00] which allowed me to progress faster than I might have needed to do if I went from company to company. And Deloitte's a special place, most good consulting firms are with respect to the ability to

[00:02:12] move to a variety of roles in a way that a lot of corporate environments don't allow you to. So I didn't need to go to a new place to get the next role. Yeah and obviously Deloitte is essentially an agency and when you're working as part

[00:02:26] of an agency, you're not just focused on one category or sector. So you work with I'm sure a variety of clients across a variety of different industries, which also within itself I assume keeps it kind of fresh.

[00:02:37] Absolutely and they team a new problem solving so that's what's kept me going. Absolutely. So take us back to the beginning when you first joined Deloitte. Did you think that you wanted to join a consulting organization out of college?

[00:02:50] Did you kind of just fall into it and what type of changes have you seen about your role and the company at large over the three decades that you've been at the company?

[00:03:00] So I did join Deloitte after I got my masters and I was pretty deliberate as you might imagine about where I wanted to be with respect to the type of environment. And probably it was the type of environment more than it was the actual skill set.

[00:03:15] I did look at PR agencies, I looked at insights and research, I looked at joining big brands that I had an appreciation for and then last but not least I looked at a variety of consulting firms. And again, as I said,

[00:03:28] I continue to kind of push on that decision all the time, which I think is an important part of the engagement process. But specifically I picked Deloitte because again for reasons that you mentioned, I like that sort of evergreen notion of environments and different sets of problems

[00:03:45] and teamwork and really bringing multidisciplinary things together. Deloitte has always been really good at assembling very diverse teams, which was important to me. There is a critical notion of the team as a unifying but it also allows like for a stronger

[00:04:03] voice when you're more junior than you know, you don't have to wait to be senior to really have an impact on the work you're doing. That was very, very important to me. And just again, the problem solving and the always doing new things was of high interest

[00:04:17] to me. A little bit of your question was sort of what's changed over the years and particularly with the business for sure, the big things that have changed are the complexity of the business

[00:04:27] and the breadth of the advice that we can bring to the table that has changed demonstrably. The scale and scope of a lot of the projects we do has changed very significantly as well.

[00:04:38] When I first started you could kind of rely on a small team to kind of work through problems today. We would always say it's people plus technology. We would always say

[00:04:49] it's worked with our clients, not four or two her clients. So some of those things have stayed the same but really sort of the magnitude of the change and the impact that we can have on our

[00:05:00] clients has changed dramatically. That would be one. The second thing I think has changed very dramatically is we do believe as a brand that sort of the life's biggest problems aren't solved by single actors. So you've seen us over time really have co-creation with our clients,

[00:05:16] with third parties, whether that's alliance partners or government agencies or whatever the case may be, really solving problems across industries. So I would say that and then we're no different than most big firms with respect to the global aspect of the

[00:05:32] problems presenting themselves. So I would say those three things are the big things that have changed. Absolutely and given all the changes you've seen I guess and you talked about the different sorts of roles, how did you end up as CMO? And CMO of a consulting company,

[00:05:45] the size of Deloitte which last time I checked has over 450,000 employees. It's a major deal. It's a major role and Deloitte does so many different things that the CMO role has

[00:05:55] to play in a pretty high altitude. I guess how did you end up in that seat and then we'll talk a little bit of that I guess what your day-in-day looks like and bringing your initiatives

[00:06:02] forward? Sure. So I often joke that my current role is pennants because I spent about 20 years providing advice to CMOs and to the OOs. So when I first started with the firm, I spent a good

[00:06:16] number of years providing sales and marketing and customer experience advice to primarily big hardware and software companies. That was the work I did. And so because of that when I was offered my first role which was as the CMO of the consulting part of our business it was

[00:06:32] because of those things that were a complex organization. So they felt that somebody that knew the way the firm was wired was important but they tried going that route exclusively that didn't have the depth with marketing and that hadn't worked so well. They'd also tried with the

[00:06:46] marketing sort of prowess from outside and because we're a very networked organization that didn't work. So they had hoped with me that they would get the best of both worlds and that connection with marketing and the customer experience was very important

[00:06:58] to them as well. So hopefully that's panned out and then about four years ago I became the US CMO and then a year ago I became the global CMO as well. Gotcha. So in the role of CMO, I would imagine

[00:07:11] one of the primary things you're focused on is just establishing what the brand Deloitte means in an ever-changing world. Obviously Deloitte has been around for so long which provides you a lot of benefits because you have that trust but you obviously want to make sure that

[00:07:25] your customer base and prospect base knows that your company is evolving with new trends in the marketplace like AI for example and globalization and everything that we're seeing in the world. When you look at the Deloitte brand, what's most important for you as CMO to get across

[00:07:41] to the marketplace and how do you go about doing that? Well it's well said that's exactly what we as a brand are trying to do is really lean into the heritage and the trust

[00:07:50] and integrity that people know that they can trust with the Deloitte brand and the legacy of that but also make sure that people or clients are always knowing the most current set of solutions that

[00:08:02] we can provide to the marketplace. So I'm definitely always working on that in that regard. I think there are a couple of things that we're doing that are different than maybe other organizations

[00:08:12] although I would argue that we're all kind of in this together but the first and foremost is that our people have to believe the promise of the brand. So they are always going to be our

[00:08:21] strongest brand investors. They will always spend a lot more time with their clients than any marketing organization so that's a big piece of who we are and what we're trying to do from a marketing

[00:08:30] perspective. The second thing is always to get the demand and the brand piece of it and obviously I work very closely with the business units. The business units aren't going

[00:08:40] to allow you to do as much on the brand side if they don't think the demand and the growth side is being met so that's always a balance and then last but not least is that our people and

[00:08:50] our clients are proud of their affiliation with Deloitte and believe that we have the best set of capabilities in the brand and that really match your question. We really center that on three things. One, our brand purpose is an impact that matters to our people, our clients,

[00:09:07] our communities and the planet. All of those constituencies are very important with respect to the way we think about the work so that's a big part of, we're not doing frivolous things, we're doing things that matter a lot. That drive business results all the way.

[00:09:20] Exactly and then there's this notion of progress and always modernizing what we're doing with the best set of capabilities and the best set of tools but really in uncertain times and challenging times like we see today people do want advisors that they trust and that

[00:09:36] they believe have character and integrity and that they want by their side and so we're always trying to pull the threads of those three things together with respect to the brand. In terms of bringing the work of the company to life because there's so much breadth and depth

[00:09:52] of work that Deloitte has across so many different industries, how do you go to market in I guess a more solidized way if you will for the brand? Obviously you want to be able to speak to

[00:10:03] a multitude of industries and use cases and at the same time you don't want the work to be unwieldy or lack consistency so to imagine you have to put some frameworks in place as you

[00:10:12] roll the sand across such a large organization. Yes that is exactly the opportunity and the challenge for sure. Again part of it is really making sure our people broadly understand enough

[00:10:24] about the way the brand needs to show up in what I call the little lived moments of every day. That's really important we've had to really sort of work hard we have been the last couple

[00:10:34] of years undergoing a major marketing transformation and it has been all about right sizing the amount of work we do at the brand level with the amount of work we do at what we call the demand gen

[00:10:44] level and making sure that there were people when I came into the role I felt that at the brand level we were talking too much about what we did and not enough about who we are and how

[00:10:55] we're different and as you've mentioned a couple of times our product set is too complex to really hook people in because of the specific service. You could typecast yourself in a way if

[00:11:05] you talk about the brand level that might alienate certain opportunities. Exactly and when we do our best work it is when we are solving bigger problems that require lots of combined sets of

[00:11:16] services not just single services on their own. Gotcha so that's the brand level and then we should demand gen level that's probably where you look at the kind of use cases more industry

[00:11:26] specific stories. So what works for you? Like I'm sure that a lot of what you do has a strong broad measure and analytics breadth behind it to make sure that you're putting your resources in

[00:11:38] the right place when you look at the last couple years especially in your role what have you found has consistently worked at driving the business as a result of your marketing? I would say that

[00:11:47] most CMOs would say something similar but the first thing that's really worked is having a much more collaborative approach with the businesses. So that means that I don't have to be omniscient with

[00:11:57] respect to what they're seeing in the marketplace we can partner together to make some of those choices together and that sounds easy but it's actually pretty hard in practice. So you mean the partners

[00:12:09] on your client then when you say collaboration? When I say partner what I mean is the people that are running the business units so the leaders of those business units really working in close collaboration from a marketing perspective. Understanding their needs, understanding what

[00:12:23] they're seeing the opportunities, providing those things that help the customers believe. Right they're the front lines of the market so they see things very differently and then combining our superpowers because they do certain things exceptionally well we do certain

[00:12:36] things exceptionally well and pulling that together. Another thing that I would imagine every CMO should be saying is really leaning into insights and analytics to be able to drive the activity and see things holistically that they can't. That actually has been a huge

[00:12:50] unlock for us because it's allowed us to be more creative which you wouldn't naturally expect. We own a lot of the channels so we can listen to clients in a different way than the business

[00:13:01] often does when they're delivering services. So that's been a big unlock for us certainly doing a big digital transformation and being able to do more activity at a lower price point has been an important part for us as well over the last couple of years.

[00:13:16] And in terms of making stuff and the seed of a marketer that your customers and prospects want, you find this form factor has changed because ultimately a lot of what you're talking about is content. When you talk about insights and analytics that boils up into not necessarily ads

[00:13:32] but actual story that and behind those stories or content they're going to find value in. So have those form factor of content change over time and have you use channels like social media to kind of push those out and in what ways?

[00:13:47] We're always looking at the mix of those channels and I would say that we're leaning in much more signatively now with social, with digital than we did for sure five, six, seven years ago. But I wouldn't say we do a lot with sponsorships because there are

[00:14:05] a great forum for us to really partner with the organization to do work for the organization as well as use that as an experience to host clients so they can see kind of the magic

[00:14:15] of who we are. As you mentioned, we do a lot of content marketing and that's an important thing. We also have been doing a lot more in the last couple of years around really showing again the personal side of what the brand looks like. If you haven't

[00:14:31] seen the WNBA campaign that we did in the WNBA finals last year, that was a really fun way to lean into our brand purpose which was kind of under the notion of girls who play become women

[00:14:43] who lead and this notion of that we've been cheering professional women on and off the court for a great many years. We've done some other so we're trying to do this mix of really showing

[00:14:55] the personality of who we are in addition to what we do and the results that we can have. Yeah, I don't imagine at the level that the business leaders that you collaborate with play at being

[00:15:09] at some of these large events and actually bringing the brand to life so to speak, the sponsorships provide you an added benefit because you're also relationship building along the way. Yes, absolutely. And how would you say because most of the CMOs that we talk to

[00:15:25] on the podcast are B2C marketers? I'm a B2B marketer. I've been a B2B marketer my whole career and I believe there's a lot of overlap but there's obviously nuances that go in the B2B marketing.

[00:15:36] I guess what are some things that you've learned along the way about B2B marketing that you believe that maybe others don't believe or just sort of like as tools of trade that you've uncovered that you lean into in your role?

[00:15:48] Well, first and foremost I do think about both of those mental paradigms if you will. I think about B2C very significantly when it comes to engaging our people because that's a little bit more of a B2C motion and then obviously I think about

[00:16:03] B2B very significantly with respect to our clients. I think historically there haven't been enough sort of cross referencing so I would argue that B2B marketers should absolutely take a lesson from B2C with respect to engagement and analytics and insights

[00:16:21] but I would say that B2C could learn a lot from B2B with respect to they've had to adjust quite a bit because the relationship part of a consumer experience has changed so dramatically over the

[00:16:33] last five years and I think that B2B really has to get both sides. They have to get digital engagement but relationship and person things and that sort of thing and so really pulling those things together I think is a big part of being successful today.

[00:16:48] We'll be right back with the speed of culture after a few words from our sponsors. And one of the benefits I imagine you have with partnering with the business leaders they just gain that sort of continual feedback loop back from your customers in terms of

[00:17:01] what they're looking at relative to Deloitte services and where they're leaning because that would probably drive the things that you talk about. How does that work and how you I guess facilitating that feedback groups you can continually evolve for your customers?

[00:17:15] So one is again we can look across with a lot of the MARTEC and the digital transformation that we did we can look holistically across. We can also see things across categories of

[00:17:28] customers and categories of service that oftentimes the business may not be able to see as easily so really partnering together on what that looks like and how we want to take a look at that

[00:17:39] and then locking on what is the ideal outcome and then that allows us to be more strategic and to be a little bit more playful a little bit more creative with respect to the actual activation

[00:17:51] and then again doing that jointly with the things that the business is actually better at which is a lot of the in-person delivery human touch is what we're always trying to navigate towards. Yeah and when you talk about the business in general the business of consulting,

[00:18:08] what are some of the broader I guess macro trends in your industry where perhaps it will be a different Deloitte in five years from now than this today like what are some of the external factors that are driving some of the areas that you're plugging in?

[00:18:22] Yeah so I think that the complexity of Deloitte would surprise most individuals and so you will continue to see us really playing into the who we are and how we're different what

[00:18:34] that actually looks like. What you will see is and this exists today but you'll see an increasing amount of solution-based kind of assets if you think about historically it was if you were meeting with your auditor it was meeting with a physical person and then doing the audit

[00:18:50] results the same thing was true with consulting now we have a lot more solutions that we embed in bigger transfer like productizing your service offerings almost. Yes and that allows speed to market that allows for reduction of risk but when you look at why

[00:19:05] somebody would go with the Deloitte it's that they can get that plus the human judgment plus the technology prowess plus the cross industry plus the private and public partnerships plus the third-party alliance relationships all of those sorts of things I think you'll just see

[00:19:24] us do more of more of and candidly it's what our clients want because that's really what progress means with respect to a lot of the fundamental challenges that they are seeing in the marketplace with growth and navigating an increasingly complex technology environment and again you think about

[00:19:44] most of the big things again involves multi-industries multi-governments globally complex it's just sort of all of those things and that's a perfect place for us to be and we'll see that in increasing fashion. Yeah and prepackaging solutions also allows you to optimize it over time

[00:20:02] where if you're building things bespoke for each customer it's really hard to build technology and data based solutions that can get better over time because you're always reinventing the wheel so and also probably makes it easier for the business people it's a story tell around it

[00:20:16] because they're telling similar stories over and over again which allows them by nature to get better at those things. Right and knowing where it matters because a lot of those assets are in places where the velocity is critical there's a reduction of risk when they are road tested

[00:20:31] to your point that when they're not starting fresh every year but then also knowing where that it has to be a team that has the experience and the expertise and the judgment you know to make decisions and how and when to apply those things is what we

[00:20:45] are very good at. Yeah and where do you see AI playing a role within your general industry and with Deloitte specifically in the years ahead because there's been so much written about how AI is really going to disrupt and revolutionize the consulting

[00:20:59] industry and I think that one thing many people don't realize is how slow to move a lot of these large organizations who you count as customers are where just because they can do things that are more automated doesn't mean they will anytime soon but at the same time

[00:21:12] I think many of us believe that AI is going to have a massive impact in the way that these large organizations are serviced so I guess what is your personal take on it and what are some of

[00:21:21] the things that Deloitte is starting to do within the AI realm? Yeah I mean I think it has and it will because it's unfolding so rapidly. I think that that's what's been so interesting right

[00:21:33] as the rate of adoption has been so high. The stage for sure. Right but we do believe in a world where it's always going to be people with that's a mantra that we have people

[00:21:43] with Gen AI, people with technology, people with AI in general. We are absolutely fundamentally thinking about it sort of through three lens. The first lens is how do we do the work that we

[00:21:54] do with respect to like if you think about the marketing organization like what are the pieces where we really want to invoke Gen AI and AI generally? We're certainly looking at it

[00:22:04] through the lens of how do we deliver services that take advantage of that. Again we talked about speed to market and how fast can you turn around advice that used to take a long time.

[00:22:16] That lens is really through the what do we want Gen AI to do in areas where people aren't exceptionally good at it. You think about looking through 100,000 contracts where people over time have done that but we're not exceptionally good at doing that so by all means infuse that

[00:22:33] to do those parts of things. Last but not least there's lots of things that will be big unlocks because again there were impediments because of the limitations of the technology that now we

[00:22:43] don't have but again we would see that there's an opportunity side of that and a huge risk side of that so being a partner by your side to help navigate that with respect to what you do

[00:22:55] with those technologies is critically important as we've all seen great stories and challenging stories unfold. Yeah for sure I mean I think both challenge and opportunity that organizations like yours are going to have is that the C-suite is now starting to be taken over with millennials

[00:23:12] who grew up with the internet and the household right so Deloitte obviously serviced the C-suite and Gen X didn't grow up with the internet and the household so a lot of the processes

[00:23:22] the systems you had deployed may have been okay for them but when millennials enter the C-suite and they're digital natives so to speak I think their expectations of how their service and the type of tools that they have that are accessible within your service offering are going

[00:23:38] to change and that means that your brand is going to have to change along with that customer base. Yeah absolutely spot on. Yeah so it'll be interesting so let's shift yours a little bit

[00:23:47] as we wrap up Suzanne just to your career so obviously not everybody has the opportunity to oversee a brand where the company that has over formative of employees I mean it's obviously

[00:23:58] a tall order when you look back at decisions you've made obviously you decided to stay at Deloitte which I think if you wouldn't stay there you wouldn't have the opportunity to be their CMO but

[00:24:06] besides that you've probably made decisions along the way to kind of put you in a position where you are today. When you look back at your career what do you think some of the decisions or choices that you've made into the word of focus within your own professional

[00:24:19] development? Yeah sure so the first one I would say is just always be really curious and be curious around you not specifically within your domain experience. So like for example I've always been in marketing sales so supply chain is something that candidly was a little off-putting

[00:24:39] to me so I spent time with my friends that were supply chain experts because that interplay is actually where a lot of the opportunities unlock. So that's one I would say learn the business

[00:24:51] if you really understand what the business needs it makes your job as a marketer so much easier because you understand their perspective you can speak their language you can bring the collective superpowers together and then last but not least is I always talk with people that

[00:25:07] I mentor or whatever about kind of make your mark we all are very different with respect to what we can bring to the table for me that was always like the highest intersection between

[00:25:16] being strategic creative and getting things done so that's how I was always wanting to change things at the greater section by the way a lot of people should focus on me being involved what

[00:25:28] that is for another person would be different but really knowing who you are and what you bring to the table and then making it different as a result of you being involved is the other

[00:25:38] thing that I've always tried to hold myself accountable to right because for other people it could be that they're very provocative or they're a thought leader or they're a great speaker or they have their finger on the pulse of what's next whatever that one skill set is

[00:25:51] that you can lean into to differentiate yourself because many companies cast themselves like a Broadway play and they weren't different types of actors that be on stage at the same time in order to win yeah I love that play analogy because that is right every actor needs their

[00:26:04] own voice and together it tells the most compelling story love that right and I guess how would you suggest one go into the self-intercepted process to identify where the intersections that they should be playing in because I think self-awareness is a big issue especially younger people in

[00:26:22] their career or they may not know where they should lean into it's a great question I think that you can find it a lot of different ways I mean part is like your own personal interest

[00:26:33] part of it is taking an honest look at where you're having an impact part of it is asking people around you that you trust and know you well like what are the differentiators or distinguishing

[00:26:45] characteristics and then I think those are all important and those are what every individual should know is like I bring this to the table what I find sometimes people particularly in today's world are don't think enough about is okay that's what I'm bringing to the table

[00:27:00] but the table needs this so where do those things meet where do those things come together because I often say to my team you know what we want to say but you don't always know what they

[00:27:13] can hear and so really making sure that you're thinking about it from both sides is something I would really encourage people to spend some time on and you speak of your team when you

[00:27:23] decide to bring somebody on your team because some of those things that we're talking about in terms of people finding the right intersection so to speak it takes a while for that to come out

[00:27:31] especially within the context of a new organization so what are some of those early signals that you look for where you're like oh this person they're a great fit for what I'm

[00:27:40] trying to build yeah I do think I've said it a number of times I do think like innate curiosity we hear that so much Suzanne so you're not the only one that's editing it's probably one of the

[00:27:49] most common being that we see and I see in talking to CMOs is they say the power of curiosity is just tremendous yeah and the curiosity is important because all we know is we aren't going

[00:27:59] to be doing things tomorrow that we're doing today so that curiosity and that kind of evergreen learning and thinking what isn't there that could be there is really important for sure there's a general like optimism ability to work with people kind of knowing that we're

[00:28:15] better together that is a big piece of it increasingly there's always going to be a component of technical expertise and skill sets and capabilities that you're bringing to the table but again we would want people to know that that's going to change pretty dramatically

[00:28:31] over time but one of the things that has also kept me in Deloitte is that I always have said that these are the people that I not only want to solve really hard problems with during the

[00:28:40] day but I want to go on a hike on the weekends it's that combination that's actually really important absolutely because without that likeability and without good chemistry if you work together then it's going to be hard despite what talents people have to actually succeed and

[00:28:55] accomplish what we want to yeah absolutely and enough for bringing in hard perspectives and you know have a voice like that's really critical yeah I think a lot of people younger in their

[00:29:06] career they find a hard time just having a voice because they just feel like they don't want to rock the boat but I think what I'm hearing you say and I agree 100% with our team is the people

[00:29:16] that are most successful are the ones that have conviction and something that done the work they do have curiosity as I sort of learned about these new things and they're not afraid to speak up

[00:29:26] yes exactly and that context is really important because I see it on both one either people are afraid to speak up because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing there is no wrong thing

[00:29:35] everyone will tell you that but on the other end sort of coming in with conviction but not understanding context and picking up on that is the other sort of end of the spectrum but can be

[00:29:48] just as limiting absolutely so this has been a great chat so important I know we've covered a ton of different areas if you're to sum up your career and the way that you look at your

[00:29:58] professional growth professional life is there a mantra or quote that you like to live by that you often find yourself saying yes there are three the first one is Homer and he said

[00:30:09] the journey is the thing so I think a lot about that I love that notion and I think it's particularly important for all of us to like be present in the moment like look ahead but appreciate the journey

[00:30:20] the second thing is Socrates said be as you wish to seem I think that's really important I think about that all the time with respect to brands and because be as you wish to seem and then last

[00:30:32] but not least is I'm a huge tennis fan and Billie Jean King talks a lot about pressure as a privilege and I think about that all the time and say that a lot to our teams is that there's a

[00:30:43] lot expected of us but that pressure is an absolute privilege. That's such a great way to look at things when you have tough situations or tough decisions to make that as a privilege

[00:30:52] would be in the position at a company like yours to be able to make those decisions that you're empowered to do so. Absolutely. As it was thanks again so much Suzanne for sharing a little bit about

[00:31:03] your journey and your role and where you see at Deloitte it's been amazing I can't wait for our audience to hear it. Thanks so much Matt. Absolutely on behalf of Susie and Adwikine thanks again to Suzanne Kunkel CMO Deloitte for joining us today be sure to subscribe rate

[00:31:15] and review the Speed of Culture podcast on your favorite podcast platform. So next time see you to everyone take care. The Speed of Culture is brought to you by Susie as part of the Adwik podcast network and Agust creator network. You can listen subscribe to all Adwik's podcast

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[00:31:48] future episodes. On behalf of the team here at Susie thanks for listening.